Legal Weapons?

[Dro]

I've got a few questions about the legality of a couple of weapons. First, are fist weapons legal? Like, as a green stabbing weapon? And could you make a fist weapon that has a buckler-sized shield over your forearm? Second, are scythes legal? because that would be sick for getting around sheilds as either a blue or a red. third, can you make a shield with a green spike in the middle? and finally, could you make like a ball-and-chain with foam-covered links?

Nova edit: My bad yo, didn't mean to change your post, I'm stupid.

[Izad]

1. If you mean "fist weapon" as in like a boxing glove thing, No
2. Scythes, no. I dont believe so because you couldnt really make one without the tip and front edge of them failing for size. And it would be pointed.
2a. You can make an axe or something like that with a type of hook to grab shields and stuff.
3. You cant make a shield with anything pertruding from the front.
4. You cant make just a ball and chain. That would be considered like a bola and those are specifically against the rules. The closest thing you can make with a ball and chain would be a flail.

[Lucius]

Rynnt,

I'm getting all my info from the Dagorhir Manual of Arms, found here at www.dagorhir.com/dagorhir/Rules.htm

I'm not sure what you mean by a fist weapon. Do you mean just a fist-shaped weapon that counts as a green? If so, then it should be legal.

I'm pretty sure a weapon cannot have a shield as part of it; it can't be both a weapon and a shield.

A scythe constructed safely enough should be legal; I don't see any specific rule against it.

No green spikes in the middle of shields;
3.5.6. Shield spikes do no damage.


A ball and chain with foam covered links is definitely illegal. For flails:
4.2.5.3. The maximum chain length is 6 inches.

Anyone else with experience feel free to correct me, but I think for the most part I'm right.

[Izad]

A scythe constructed safely enough should be legal; I don't see any specific rule against it.

the only thing i dont agree with you on is your scythe opinion. Though there isnt any specific rule for it, the shape of it i think would break other rules. Such as maybe the striking surface and safety to others. With it being the shape of a scythe, it would have that long blade and sort of curved and pointed. It would probably pass through the weapon check template. And if you made it big enough that it didnt, it would probably have to be a pretty large weapon. Seeing as how the blade gets bigger the farther back you go to the core. And with it having sort of a curve, i dont think it would be safe to swing at people. Ive never seen one and i cant imagine how they could safely be constructed and still usable.

[Dro]

Well it wouldn't have to actually look like a scythe, just act as one. it could have a uniform-sized blade without the point, and maybe a stabbing tip on the end. And by fist weapon, i mean something like this
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Ornamental_katar.jpg/200px-Ornamental_katar.jpg

[Izad]

As far as your punching weapon, i personally would still have to go with no, because something like that would create a punching motion towards another member and that isnt allowed. You might as well just make a sword instead.

The problem with the scythe weapon is that you would have to mount the blade sideways and coming out from the core, which isnt easy to do. There would probably be flex issues with it not to mention really hard to mount it and keep it in place. And if you were going to put a stabbing tip on it i think it would be just like someone swinging a spear around. If you were going to mount handles on the core like a scythe, that would create another problem cause it would be really hard to swing and the handles might break or come loose every battle or so. There would be a lot of torque on the handles and that is what would make them break or come loose. If you would make a broad blade sideways on a core, it might as well be an axe.

Im not trying to be mean about it, i'm just giving you my opinion on weapon building. I just personally think either of the 2 would be a waste of your time and money.

(Nova edit again: sorry, you accidentally said that you were trying to be mean about it, I thought it needed fixed.)

[Vors Nymphkilla]

no punching weapons which is exactly what a katar is, it is not safe to punch someone no matter how well padded. buckler is ok but shields of any type cannot be used as a damage dealing weapon. you can legally make a shield spike but it must be made entirely of open cell foam and it does no damage (in general very hard to make and not worth your time). the ball and chain would likely just be a flail as thats what a flail IS. scythes are tricky. most of the time they'll fail do to the ability to catch a limb and the end cannot be stabby as a swing is not the same as a thrust. really the way a scythe is built, it cannot be safely used in dagorhir. the closest you'd be able to do is a naginata like our friend Cyrus has. your best bet is to attempt a solid shield hook on some other weapon

[Swordbrother Nova]

Q: I've got a few questions about the legality of a couple of weapons. First, are fist weapons legal? Like, as a green stabbing weapon?

A: Punching weapons are not illegal, your best alternative would be a dagger, but it still isn't punching

4.1.11.10 - Disallowed weapons include but are not limited to: Nets, lassos, pungee sticks, nunchucks, tonfas, double-ended daggers, punch daggers

Q: And could you make a fist weapon that has a buckler-sized shield over your forearm?

A: Not attached, that would be a perceived loop-hole, it gives you an unbreakable shield and may also be considered anvilling (laying your weapon against yourself to act as armor, rather than actually blocking) And weapons used by anvilling (I think) can be 'broken' like a shield that's taken two red hits.

Q: Second, are scythes legal? because that would be sick for getting around sheilds as either a blue or a red.

A: I'm looking up the legality of this right now, I don't think that a scythe would be nearly as good as a flail (hinged weapon) since flails work in more cramped quarters without being limited to a vertical swing. If you choose to use mainly flails be prepared to take a lot of shit for it, since it is generally believed that it takes less skill to uses a flail than a sword. Getting around shields with a regular bladed weapon is relatively easy when someone shows you how to do a wrap, and people tend to not expect someone with a sword to hit them in the back.

I couldn't find anything in the rules other than if a weapon seems to be unsafe for any reason it can be failed, so I'm checking the national forum for topics about scythes, www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?action=search2 that's the link to my search results if you want to look further into this yourself.

Here is one response "i know scythes are generally viewed as unsafe becuse of the danger of hooking someone, also the swung tip couldnt count green becuse green tips cant be swung" The hooking is going to be your biggest problem.

Here's a response from Alric of Drentha: A scythe is designed for cutting grass. You could kill someone with it, just like you could with a lawnmower. But neither is a first choice to take to a battlefield. (that's the same problem I thought of first)

the problem with curving a weapon alot is that it tends to make it either A: less safe (more painful, etc.) B: less durable (thus more prone to snapping in half) or C: both.

It seems they are legal, but neigh impossible to get passed.

Q: third, can you make a shield with a green spike in the middle? and finally, could you make like a ball-and-chain with foam-covered links?

A: The shield spike will do no damage and depending on the way you make your shield it may compromise the structural integrity (harumph harumph) of your equipment. Yes you may have a ball and chain, so long as it is on a stick and the chain is no longer than 6", (ha ha, I made a funny, I was talking about flails)

[Izad]

thanks for repeating everything i said everybody.

[Swordbrother Nova]

Sorry, I was working on writing all that stuff while you guys were all responding.

[eoin]

Ok I want to chime in on scythes.
Scythes have a place in Dag much like man powered flight used to have in engineering. Basically to some it is the object of a holy grail type quest to others it has become a pointless past time due to their being so much more efficient means. I have yet to see a verified report of a workable (meaning sturdy) design for a scythe (there was one that seemed promising but never heard how it held up), and it comes up every couple of months so if some one that posts there had done it or seen it done it would have been mentioned. If you manage to pull it off you will make a name for yourself as a foam smith, that said if you still need to ask these questions you don't have the skills to pull if off yet. No offense ment but there are decades worth of combined experience at weapon making that can at best only manage to say that it should be theoretically possible to do. I really suggest making basic swords, maces, and axes in both blue and red forms before you move on to the exotics.

Oh and Lucius those aren't the most up to date rules any more. www.digitalbonsai.com/dagrules-draft/
Those are the national rules that are in effect til the next Rag when the new rules about arrow and jav head dimensions goes into effect. It would be nice if someone would compile a list or the variations to the national rules that Maeth plays under (I know they exist I learned one about shield charges a couple of weeks ago) so that someone like me with the inclination could put both the Maeth and the National rules into a nice little book and have a couple run off and bound by copies now so people could be on the same page (literally) about what is and is not legal on the field.

[Swordbrother Nova]

I'm actually working on that, I'm going to make a period looking book to hold contact info from waivers, so that should something happen at a practice we have a way to make all the necessary calls.. House rules, and the national rules/MoA, a copy of the by laws when they are done, and other useful info.

[Dro]

Thanks everyone!

[Izad]

Rynnt, for the record, Calvin and Hobbes is the shit. Good choice.

[Dro]

Hahaha. Thanks. I have almost all of the books. I stopped once I had all the original ones and only the anniversary ones with collections of old strips were left. I felt like buying those would be a waste of my money. But it's probably the best comic strip ever made. Just sayin.